← All episodes

Money Messes With Your Mind with Per Espen Stoknes

18th Jun 2024 Gemini 1.5 Pro

Per Espen Stoknes' Background

Per Espen Stoknes began his career studying Jungian psychology and deep ecology, intrigued by the concept of a larger, ecological self. His interest in the psychology of climate action was sparked by the disappointing outcome of the 2009 Copenhagen Climate Conference. He noticed a decline in public engagement with climate change and decided to investigate the psychological barriers preventing individuals and organizations from taking meaningful action. This research culminated in his book, "What We Think About When We Try Not to Think About Global Warming: Toward a New Psychology of Climate Action."

Stoknes' work in psychotherapy led him to recognize the extractive mindset prevalent in business and public sectors, mirroring humanity's relationship with nature. He transitioned from individual therapy to teaching at the Norwegian Business School, where he focuses on integrating nature and social issues into business strategies for long-term value creation.

The Psychology of Climate Action

Stoknes identifies four key psychological dimensions influencing climate action: belief in the reality of climate change, acknowledgment of human responsibility, perception of its severity, and belief in the possibility of solutions. While there is now widespread acceptance of global warming, the other dimensions are hampered by psychological defense mechanisms. Stoknes outlines five primary defenses: distancing, doom, dissonance, denial, and identity.

The identity defense is particularly relevant to conversations about economics and climate change. When individuals feel personally attacked for their lifestyles or values, they become defensive and less receptive to information. Stoknes argues that shaming and guilt are ineffective motivators for collective climate action. Instead, he advocates for a more objective and inclusive approach, emphasizing the shared benefits of a high-quality, low-impact society.

"Everybody loves nature, everybody loves beautiful animals and a beautiful lake and look at all this. It's not that people hate nature. You love a blue sky, you love watching the clouds and the sound of a waterfall. Why don't we create that beautiful world, you and I? That's a very different conversation from what happens usually."

Pathologies of Economic Thinking

Stoknes criticizes the field of economics for its narrow focus on market-based solutions and its reduction of all values to monetary terms. He uses the example of a kindergarten to illustrate how economists, fixated on price and supply-and-demand curves, fail to see the human and social aspects of the situation. This fundamentalist approach, he argues, stems from the historical adoption of mathematical models based on Newtonian physics, leading economists to prioritize efficient markets over social and environmental considerations.

Furthermore, Stoknes highlights the overemphasis on economic flows (like GDP growth) over stocks (like natural capital). This short-term perspective, coupled with the psychological influence of money on attention and imagination, exacerbates the exploitation of natural resources for immediate financial gain.

"And as you know, money makes the world go round, but also money messes with your mind. And the combination of those two things made economics pretty blind to the natural world and what it did to social relations and social capital."

Rethinking Money: Beyond the Economic Textbook

Stoknes argues that the traditional economic definition of money as a medium of exchange, unit of account, and store of value is woefully inadequate. He proposes three additional functions of money:

  1. Social relations: Money, often created through debt, establishes power dynamics and social hierarchies based on who owes what to whom.
  2. Attention shaping: Money influences our perceptions and priorities, often leading us to prioritize financial gain over other values.
  3. Imagination: Money is linked to our aspirations and dreams, shaping our desires and influencing our life choices.

This expanded understanding of money highlights its profound psychological and social impacts, aspects often ignored in mainstream economics.

Towards Regenerative Finance and Eco Coins

Stoknes sees cryptocurrency and blockchain technology as presenting a unique opportunity for a "psychological intervention in the heart of economics." He envisions a future with multiple currencies representing different forms of capital: monetary, natural, and social. These currencies could be linked to physical units, such as hectares of biodiverse land, enabling businesses and individuals to track their ecological footprint and contribute to regeneration.

He proposes a system where companies could pay taxes in biodiversity credits earned through regenerative practices, incentivizing investment in ecological restoration. This approach goes beyond traditional economic instruments like subsidies, which fail to address the underlying psychological and social factors driving environmental degradation.

"If we manage to keep flows and stocks distinct, then I would prefer the stocks to be accounted for in physical units. So what's the amount of biocapacity or biodiversity per hectare? These are very physical things, right? So you'd have a real mirror or a real visualization of what is the amount of available freshwater, green water, blue water in the system here?"

Stoknes acknowledges the challenges of implementing such a system, particularly the complexities of convertibility between different forms of capital. However, he remains optimistic about the potential of technology and innovative financial mechanisms to drive positive change, especially when coupled with the knowledge and stewardship of indigenous communities.